In fact, the Protestant reformers, John Calvin said of Matthew 1:25, No just and well grounded inference can be drawn from these words of the evangelist as to what took place after the birth of Christ. Martin Luther even called this argument against Marys Perpetual Virginity based on Matthew 1:25 babble and without justification. As a believing Jew and Christian, Mary would not have disobeyed God who commanded married couples to be fruitful and multiply, nor would she have deprived her husband as the apostle Paul wrote, the wife must fulfill her duty to her husband and does not have authority over her own body so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self control. 1 Corinthians 7:3-5.. And I think thats something that we do find. I have two chapters on it in my book, The Case for Catholicism. Steve Christie Geoffrey Stephen Christie Position: K 6-0 , 195lb (183cm, 88kg) Born: November 13 in Oakville, Ontario (Age: 55-107d) College: William & Mary Weighted Career AV (100-95-. Were going to move into seven-minute rebuttals. He says, Trent, the proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believed that which is false. Coming to the industry in 1990, he soon discovered that the practice of Real Estate by most was not at the level of professionalism that he had envisioned. Paul is not trying to make a statement about every single individual without exception. Yes. Christie also claims Jesus reference to the Pharisee Nicodemus as the teacher of Israel (John 3:10) meant the Pharisees had unique teaching authority over other Jews. She would have to have a heavenly body. And even if it wasnt, I dont see the relevance to it. So here, Mary can be talking about salvation from threats in this life, not sin. on Ye, because Jesus younger half sibling was Joseph while Jesus father was God. bitcoin wyohackathon bitcoinkn.com Trace Mayer Steve Christie Kraken.com. He was preceded in death by both his parents. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. Hes simply talking about Jesus being the firstborn. Let no one dwell in their tents. This is later applied in Acts 120, but not to a group of people, to an individual, namely Judas. Given that the church both east and west had access to the same scriptures as us and were closer to the time of the apostles, how do you justify the church being in era for so long on a number of the Marion doctrines? Singing professionally for over 30 years, Steve Christie is a seasoned performer. So theyre different contexts to examine, but thats not what were debating, whether scripture teaches it. If you guys want, I just had a dialogue with Steve and Jeff on their channel. [inaudible 00:57:25] the son of Mary is odd. The Morning Ritual with Garret Lewis. Thats why theyre diverging traditions on whether Mary died or not, but you dont find the first denial of Marys assumption until in the late early middle ages. By utilizing electric acoustic guitar and digitally recorded performance tracks with the technology of digital harmony Steve performs your favorite hits, "flawlessly". Well, of course not. Sponsored by SaltLending.com and Epic.Tech. And you, just so people are aware, arent being mean or anything by doing that. G.K. Chesterton - famous author, philosopher, theologian, apologist. No one ever says the gift of prophecy or divine revelation had returned after being absent for several centuries. If your unbaptized baby dies, and theyre not baptized, guess what? Regarding her bodily assumption that Pope declared infallibly, if anyone should dare willfully to deny that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic faith. And of course we can get into the whole Latria and Dulia argument, but thats not what this debate is actually about. Sep 29, 2021. So is this your view, Jesus and his siblings have the same mother but they have different fathers? The YouTube show, which was created by Kyle Curtis and Steve McRae, often featured interesting guests, such as Hugh Ross, Inspiring Philosophy, Shannon Q, Sy Garte, Matt Dillahunty, Paulogia, Lawrence Krauss, and more. Okay. Just for fun, I mean, I would probably enjoy listening to Ignatius. Jesus tells the apostles and Matthew 28:20, Observe all that I have commanded you and behold, I am with you always to the close of the age. Even though Jesus will be with the apostles even after the present age comes to an end. Both of us agree thats not the case for Jesus. This means Mary was earthy like Adam, before she was heavenly once Jesus redeemed and delivered her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then after being assumed into heaven, she would have a glorified body. I mean, actually you and I would agree on this. Can I quickly make a [inaudible 01:23:12]. What is Mary talking about in Luke One? And most commentaries agree that this passage parallels what Hannah says in First Samuel 2:1, and she likewise doesnt mention sin. Also, Paul drew extensively on themes from the deuterocanonical works in his own writings. Okay. The same in any intellectual study. So I think Catholics have a way to honor Mary as the mother of God without divinizing her. As I had mentioned about the Greek word, adelphi, let me remind everyone that this is about what scripture actually teaches and to remind that the Septuagint is a translation. It doesnt explicitly state that is [inaudible 01:14:05]. Well, again, this is the exception. Hallow.com/mattfred, click the link in the description below. But let me get to that point about death though. In order to show these dogma contradict scripture, Steve must do one of two things. No, it doesnt say that but it doesnt say Joseph was bodily assumed into heaven and the same three dogmas could apply to Joseph as well, but we dont make as much why is there not a dogma those dogmas apply to Joseph. Check out this great listen on Audible.com. And again, if he meant only child, he wouldve used monogenes like he used it elsewhere in Lukes gospel. Perhaps John witnessed this event and then told others or this may have been given to John through some other kind of revelation. No one else ever before in the history of salvation had been asked to do something like that. He mentioned about the Septuagint. I had mentioned about the immaculate conception not being declared ex cathedra because this was before Vatican I in 1870 that declared that when a Pope declared something ex cathedra, then its considered infallible. Does the Bible say that every human person without exception has been conceived in original sin? He writes, As a Pharisee, the apostle Paul would have understood the Law and the Prophets to refer to only those writings found in Protestant Old Testaments today. But this argument fails for the following reasons. Facebook While Jesus was conceived by the holy spirit, the Psalmists wrote, In sin, my mother conceived me. Echoed later by the apostle Paul all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The Greek word translated all [foreign language 00:08:51] translated everyone, which includes Mary in her conception, but obviously not Jesus since scripture explicitly states, Jesus was without sin. So my point would be that if we would show that devotion to the means through which Jesus died, why wouldnt we show that similar devotion through the means by which Jesus was born? Dr. Steven A. Christie MD Radiology General Radiology Kendall, FL Male 21+ Yrs Experience English 7500 SW 87th Ave, Kendall, FL Overview Location & Contact Education & Experience Overview. I would say the church subsist in the Catholic church though other non-Catholic Christians have an imperfect communion with the church. So you can use the app for three months before deciding whether its worth your time and money. Okay. Steve Ray is a Apologetics, Convert, Evangelist travelling from , Michigan. Rather, this counterfeit Mary developed over several centuries based on false typologies, which conflict with Scripture, no different than what Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses, and Muslims have done with Jesus. How do we know this from the New Testament? Man commits idolatry when he honors and reviews a creature in place of God. Something went wrong with your request. When Jesus mother and brothers approach him later in verse 31, Jesus contrasts his biological brothers who dishonored him with his disciples, who were his spiritual brothers, who did the will of God. The first is if you are watching right now and you are not yet subscribed to this YouTube channel, click subscribe, click the bell button. Finally, as H.G.L. Without separating the Marian dogmas from them are where these much, much later Marian dogmas developed from and later forced into the text, which would have been foreign to the biblical writers. The infallible authority of Scripture versus a fallible self-proclaimed authority of the Magisterium, which demands a faithful Catholic to believe these dogmas threatening them with excommunication for denying them, despite all of them contradicting Scripture. I dont have a problem with the word a adelphos, that was never my argument. Gordon Clark - Christian philosopher, apologist, and theologian. Massive thanks to those who support us at locals and on Patreon. And so it would fulfill the promise in Philippians 3:21 that says, Our bodies, lowly bodies, will be transformed like his heavenly body, Christ. Just like Jesus and Mary did not have glorified bodies, Jesus did not have a glorified body during his earthly ministry, he briefly revealed it on the Mount of Transfiguration, but Jesus was not going about in his glory during his earthly ministry. Steve Cable, April 18, 2022 Steve Cable explains how the apostle Peter showed himself to be a master apologist, not the bumbling, brash fisherman he used to be. Christie, who grew up in Oakville, Ontario, graduated from The College of William and Mary and made his NFL debut with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 1990. Nice to have you. And again, in Sirach chapter 18, I think its verse 17 in the Septuagint uses this same Greek word, but in the masculine to refer to man being full of grace as [inaudible 01:21:46] and obviously Trent and I would agree that it doesnt mean that way. Theres more to it than that. Because there would be no reason to rescue her from death because a purpose of a bodily assumption into heaven is so an individual would not see death. And in fact, in the Old Testament, only begotten and firstborn are used interchangeably. I dont know. What the church teaches is that infallibility does not cover preambles or evidences that are used to formulate a doctrine. And if he had met sister-in-law, such as Marys sister in John chapter 19, he wouldve utilize the Greek word, [Greek 00:47:36] thats used in the book of Ruth to describe Orpahs relationship with Ruth. Brant Pitre has some great work on Mary as well for people to check out. If Mary was a immaculate conceived, why would Joseph and her kinsfolk who knew her-. Second Corinthians is clear, God made him who knew no sin to become sin for us. Well, I would say that it contradicts it because if she was indeed sinless, Mary would not have been bodily assumed into heaven for the reasons I stated in my opening statement. I think that what were quibbling a little bit here on the assumption, I think we actually have more things we agree on than less. That children at a young age do not commit personal sins. In his 15 NFL seasons, Christie converted 336 of 431 (77%) field goals and 468 of 473 (98%) extra points, giving him a total of 1,476 points. So summarize, the Bible does not teach that Mary sin nor does it teach that every single human being has committed a sin or inherited original sin without exception. So ultimately Steve has the burden here to show that the Marian dogmas contradict scripture, and hes brought up a lot of points. He was a five-year teammate of quarterback Jim Kelly, who has been in remission from sinus cancer since August. Steve's showmanship is upbeat and romantic but there's a lot more. A lot of mouthful, but thats what links are for. So I think its important that each of us, we dont have a problem with We might have a problem how to apply it but the basic level mother of God isnt contradicted by scripture. Dear catholic.com visitors: This Catholic Answers website, with all its free resources, is the worlds largest source of explanations for Catholic beliefs and practices. Well, in my own personal journey of faith, I think I had some difficulties with the immaculate conception of Mary and Marys bodily assumption, but I think I was able to move through those difficulties by broadening my understanding of what is the ultimate source of authority for Christians that its not Sola scriptura because the Bible itself doesnt even teach that. So this question comes from Mitchell Godfrey, and Im going to just change his question a little because he said he is not going to be watching live. You talked a little about in Adam, all die, but notice here there are exceptions. Honestly, Id have to think about it. Thats fine. With over 600 references, "Why Protestant Bibles are smaller" defends the Protestant Old Testament canon using mostly Catholic resources including the Vatican, EWTN, Catholic Answers, and quotations from contemporary Catholic authors like Gary Michuta ("Why Catholic Bibles Are Bigger"), Jimmy Akin ("The Fathers Know Best"), and Trent . Christie eventually got cut on October 4. Isiah wrote the deliverer will come out of Zion. Singleton New South Wales MRC Australia provide radiator and cooling solutions to Mining , Automotive, Industrial , Agricultural , Marine and Rail Operations. But even St. Louis de Montfort who uses very lofty language of Mary says of her that she is but one Adam in comparison to the infinite and majestic glory that is God. Thats because they quoted primarily from the Septuagint, or the Greek Old Testament. And yeah, I would just encourage others, Ive always said this, I dont see debates as a way to end an issue. If she was immaculately conceived, wouldnt she have known that she was the version from Isaiah 7:14? Oh, its for me? Their issue is not about Mary. According to one commentary Marys song like Hannahs declares that security and significance are found in a God who would care about the broken and poor enough to give himself to them. Christie requested his release from Jacksonville after a week in camp hoping to retire, but signed with the New York Giants a day later, playing what would be his final NFL season. Make an Appointment Okay. Contrary to what Steve said this has been infallibly defined, though before the ex cathedra statements of the First Vatican Counsel. Ravi Zacharias, the prominent Christian apologetics author and speaker, died Tuesday at the age of 74 following a battle with a rare form of cancer. We are going to be moving into a time of cross-examination where each debater will get 10 minutes each. I mean, aside from the dogmas, I think one of the ones that make me cringe is that Catholics worship Mary, where every time I hear that, Im like And I brought it up, but I explained I came about it through a different way. This is known as [inaudible 01:09:50]. Aaron Frederick, one of my YouTube subscribers, rightly observed, In a courtroom, evidence that is thrown out or dismissed by a court cannot be used to find a verdict. Kelly said, for the great majority of the early Church Fathers, the deuterocanonical writings ranked as Scripture in the fullest sense (Early Christian Doctrines, 55). There might be historical errors, for example, in some magisterial documents, talking about the history of a doctrine, whether a certain saint or father believed X, Y, or Z. Infallibility has a narrow sense and only covers what is specifically defined. So Steve is saying that the word adelphi, which means sister. In order to justify that claim, Christie would have to present a standard that tells us what writings prior to Christ are inspired and why we should accept that particular standard. Apologetics for the Masses #366 - 4 Words That Changed the World, Part III. But maybe are there other verses that have talked about that Mary gave birth to other children and so she would not be a perpetual Virgin? Okay. Thank you very much, Steve. All right. Or, since Jesus said the Pharisees in his presence murdered this person, it could refer to one of Jesus contemporaries. When Matthew 1:25 writes, Joseph kept Mary a virgin until she gave birth to a son, the specific Greek words [foreign language 00:02:06] when translated until, is used consistently in the New Testament to refer to a change in condition. I mean, I have to really think about that. According to Methodist scholar David A. deSilva, New Testament authors weave phrases and recreate lines of arguments from Apocryha books into their new texts. As I said before, thats not what were debating today. Matthew 18:17 says, Jesus says, If a person who sins against you refuses to listen to you or two or three witnesses, tell it to the church. And it seems to envision the church as having some kind of authoritative structure and not simply as the invisible bond between all believers. Christian authors, however, never present a list of inspired books written before the time of Christ that matches the Protestant Old Testament canon. Yes, and Christie admits they did, though he thinks we can discern which Jews had the correct canon of Scripture. Regarding proof from scripture, for this dogma founder and senior fellow of Catholic Answers, Karl Keating wrote There is none, in his book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism understanding that these three Catholic Marian Dogmas contradict scripture has twofold importance. And so if it doesnt contradict scripture, then it should be an issue between Catholics and Protestants of secondary importance, much like how people disagree about infant baptism. Sure. Regarding the Immaculate Conception, the other Pope declared, but not infallibly, the most blessed Virgin Mary in the first instance of her conception was preserved free from all stain of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to believe firmly and constantly by all the faithful. So hes just talking about this birthright that he mentions about 10 versus later. And I showed in my arguments that his claim that adelphei can only mean uterine sister of the same mother, or figurative, are simply not held up. And that Greek grammarians and New Testament scholars simply disagree with Steve on this point, hes just wrong about the semantic range of that word. Cyril of Jerusalem refers to Baruch as the prophet, cites Baruch 3:35-37 in defense of the deity of Christ and includes Baruch in the writings of Jeremiah in his list of the canon. Jesus does not rebuke her. Good day, Steve. Okay. So wed only asked does the bible teach that Mary had sexual relations. A Response to Pastor Chip Thornton's Anti-Catholic Newspaper Article. Thank you very much, Trent. Well, why would I believe that Marys parents-. All right. Now Steve mentioned and many other Protestants allude to Matthew 1:24-25, which says When Joseph woke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him. 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