Polybutylene pipe is a gray plastic tubing that was commonly used as a water-supply plumbing pipe between 1978 and 1995, at which time it was discontinued due to reports of pipes rupturing. Polybutylene pipes are often used with copper fittings which can also confuse a homebuyer. As weve mentioned, the uncertainty of buying a home that has polybutylene pipes creates a scary situation for most homebuyers. Also the pipes were not disclosed by the seller. You should understand that repiping in copper, or copper and CPVC is going to be expensive, and estimates are going to vary, so taking off a large chunk of the purchase price of a home may not cover the expense or the hassle. Copyright. Polybutylene pipes are difficult to identify. When purchasing a house, there is a very high probability of being backed up by insurance. I have inspection contingency so I have the option of walking away. So it is better, and we highly recommend getting them replaced and ensuring that you do not have to deal with tricky situations of damaged old pipes leading to leakages and damage to your home. Honestly, I don't think that the sellers were being dishonest or intentionally with holding the fact that the pipes are polybutylene. McGarry and Madsen. buying a house We completed all our inspections (structural, septic, water, pest, home), the bank ordered the appraisal, the Realtor hired the attorney. Also in 1989, a totally different design emerged which used flexible pipiing. However, being a seller, you should disclose all the necessary information about the house, including polybutylene pipes. This can be a good idea if you have made up your mind about purchasing the house because it is better to get the re-piping done before moving into the home. Are Polybutylene Water Supply Pipes Bad? homebuying In your case asking for $50k discount plus $20k probably wouldn't work. Your average homeowner would not know polybutylene pipes from any other type of plastic plumbing. Now that weve looked at the options for selling your house with polybutylene pipes, you can apply them to your circumstances. Why is polybutylene piping bad? Another option is to replace polybutylene pipes with copper pipes. This means that you dont have to wait to find out if your buyer can get their final loan approval. Their business model is to purchase properties that they can repair or upgrade. Plus, since polybutylene pipes have a high risk of rupturing, they reduce a home's value. How would your realtor know that if it was mistakenly checked on the disclosure. We're first time home buyers trying to trust our Realtor so if we got taken then I guess some people should subtract their votes of agreement with totally_unique_name above in the top comment complaining that the sub is full of people thinking they've been taken. Please include a message before submitting. However, if you know you have poly plumbing - you will most likely need to disclose that fact. Why is there a flexible accordion pipe under the sink? Polybutylene is a type of plastic potable water plumbing commonly found in many US homes built from the late 1970's through to the mid-1990's. Compared to copper, it was inexpensive, easy to install, and had several other advantages like being resistant to damage from freezing. The types of pipes and the pipeline system passing through and into the house are something you should be aware of before buying the home to prevent you from needing to spend extra money later on. If the seller chooses not to replace the polybutylene pipes, give them a release agreement to sign that protects you from all potential liability. They were installed in almost 10 million homes at a substantial savings over the conventional copper plumbing pipes. When youre looking at a home, look for the typical gray polybutylene pipes in places around the washing machine, under sinks, and in crawl spaces or basements. Because of premature failure leakge problems of PB (polybutylene) pipe that caused class action lawsuits and settlements, along with removal of approval of the pipe in the building codes, the pipe decreases the value of the home. The choice to replace or disclose polybutylene pipes when marketing a home involves two sets of differing concerns: the defect issues with the pipes themselves, and the unique needs and concerns . Compared to copper, it was inexpensive, easy to install, and had several other advantages like being resistant to damage from freezing. Our unique online platform was created to put them together with property sellers just like you. Polybutylene (PB) is a plastic used for piping in home plumbing systems that were manufactured between 1978 and mid-1995. That buyer will probably want to negotiate the asking price and reduce it because they have to replace the plumbing, costing them extra money. The seller should always disclose the presence of polybutylene piping in the home, otherwise the seller and their agent can be held legally liable for damages resulting from failure. Still, one thing is for sure: insurance companies will not provide coverage for a house with polybutylene pipes. All Rights Reserved. What can you do if you buy a home and later discover something was omitted from seller disclosure? The final eligibility deadlines for this class action expired many years ago. Most of these forms require the seller to disclose information related to polybutylene pipes. Push-on shut-off valves are a good option for this repair, also. Does a repipe include drain pipes? Well Crap, Polybutylene Pipes in a House I'm Looking at Buying #10628138 10/28/15. Polybutylene pipe health risks and product failures led to a successful class-action lawsuit in 1995. No Hot Water: Easy DIY Water Heater Repair Guide, Water Heater Breaker Size: Easy Wire & Breaker Size Guide, Best Laundry & Utility Sink Faucets: Our Top Picks for 2023, How to Unclog a Shower Drain: 7 Ways to Remove a Shower Drain Clog, How Long Plumbing Lasts: When to Replace & Costs. If you are a seller, you should disclose all known conditions that the buyers need to know about the property including the likelihood of leaky pipes. Polybutylene is a form of plastic pipe used in residential plumbing until the late-1990s. Real estate investors are exactly this type of buyer. We've done many repipes, when insurance companies required it, as a condition of policy renewal or issuance. The damage occurs along the internal pipe walls. Secondly, they would need to be financially able to buy the house and then make the necessary repairs. Members of the general public who are working with a broker will be looking at multiple properties. The average cost to replumb a house will vary between $5,000 to $7,000. They will keep the property and rent it to tenants. It also said check all that apply. Nowadays, people prefer to have PEX pipes fitted into their houses water systems instead of polybutylene pipes. What is the difference between water service pipe and water supply pipe? If you're still not sure, call us. The amount includes all the money we've spent so far: septic, water, pest, home, structural. When temperatures rise and fall, poly pipes will expand and contract. In 2017, a new polybutylene class-action was filed with Hurt v. Shell Oil, which attempted to include homeowners left out in the prior 1995 settlement. Polybutylene plumbing is bad because it breaks off into the water supply. Some states' disclosure laws are more comprehensive than others, and if a feature isn't on the list the seller may not be required to speak up. I went back over our original contract and in the Disclosure Statement the seller checked "plastic" instead of "polybutylene." Initially, polybutylene pipes were popular because they were: Inexpensive Flexible Easy to install I think you are correct to worry about it, and if she has those pipes in her house she's in denial that it won't impact her ability to sell at some point or cause her expensive repairs. Another significant aspect of buying a house with polybutylene pipes is the insurance problem that might come along with it. Call 800-216-0132 to schedule an estimate. 3. If the seller chooses not to replace the polybutylene pipes, give them a release agreement to sign that protects you from all potential liability. Polybutylene pipes cause uncertainty for the buyers as these pipes problems are not immediately visible. Do you have to disclose polybutylene pipes to a homebuyer? Locating and working on existing pipes requires cutting holes in your walls. PB piping has not been used for drain and sewer lines, nor vent piping. Finding out that your dream house has polybutylene pipes can be discouraging, and it might sway your decision on whether to buy the home and rightfully so, these types of pipes can be risky. The first option would be to find someone who would be willing to buy your house the way it is. Your contractor should talk to you about whether its possible to leave the existing pipes in place and re-route the water through the new pipes. Repiping the interior of your home will cost between $1,500 to $8,000 for Pex or CPVC pipes, and from $2,500 to $15,000 for copper. You can, however, replace the polybutylene pipes with PEX piping. How can I tell what type of plumbing pipe I have? The majority of polybutylene plumbing installed is still installed and working fine. Sellers must also disclose polybutylene pipes to buyers when they sell their home. We would have requested they replace them and if they didn't we would have walked away early in the process. What are the code requirements for plumbing vent terminations? So, if you're absolutely in love with a home with polybutylene piping, have your real estate agent ask the seller to either . They would need to be comfortable with buying a property that may need extensive work to replace the pipes and repair any damage. Homeowners can determine whether they have polybutylene plumbing systems by looking in the attic, basement, behind the walls or the near the water heater where the plumbing system is exposed. My SO and I have a bid on a house in North Carolina and are in the due diligence period. These pipes were last used in new construction in the mid 90s and are now around 20 years old. Polybutylene pipes fall under the category of a material defect, and almost all states make you disclose any information related to a property defect. Poly pipe failures can also be catastrophic, as opposed to a slow leak. Polybutylene pipes are a significant inconvenience for plumbers because these pipes cracks and leakages are not easy to find. Can galvanized steel pipe still be used for new water lines in a house? They suggest the sellers either bring the market price of the house down such that the buyer could make the necessary replacement or replace the system on their own with copper pipes. Is a washing machine drain hose required to be secured at the standpipe? We are a national platform connecting homeowners looking to sell their house fast and for cash with real estate investors willing to help them. There were lawsuits including a class action lawsuit involving the pipes and disclosure issues. There are no showings or open houses. Of course, only specific insurance companies can answer that question, for your specific circumstances. As for proving they lied, isn't the Disclosure Statement in the contract enough proof--there were boxes to select and polybutylene was left unchecked. The insurance usually covers the cost of damages to the home, but not damages caused by natural disasters or fires if they have polybutylene pipes. Polybutylene (PB) piping was standard in homes built between 1978 and 1996. If all the plumbing drains have water in them and you can still smell sewer gas, what's causing the problem? In new construction, it was replaced by copper or more dependable forms of plastic pipe, such as CPVC and PEX. She wants her X-thousand(s) of dollars from you and that's her priority. Certain regions have unique disclosure issues. Look for reviews online on sites like Facebook, Google, and Yelp. If you find a vendor who was previously in the house and alerted them to the fact that the pipes needed to be replaced you have proof. Messages sent using the form on this site, go directly to our email, which we check regularly. The buyer takes care of everything. When this happens, weakened pipes will rupture. house See our blog posts What does polybutylene pipe look like? We have already researched and vetted the top real estate investors from across the industry. Buy a new build with 10 year warranty. PB-1 combines typical characteristics of conventional polyolefins with certain properties of technical polymers. Now four years later in the inspection report from my buyer a more dramatic statement is made: "Polyethylene Plumbing Supply Lines have been known to to be randomly defective and can rapture without notice" and the buyer wants me to replace the Polybutylene Pipes in the condo. Including: Arizona, California, Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Oklahoma, Oregon, Tennessee, Texas, Utah & Washington, Published:2022-06-01|Updated:2022-06-27. They are regularly looking for homeowners selling a house in poor condition as is. Now that you know the years that piping was used and maybe even what it looks like, you're an educated buyer who will know to ask that question and check it out for yourself before spending money on another inspection. If they don't agree, though, we are going to have to walk away. Contractor License Info:State license info available in, our location directory. If your plumber lets you know that the polybutylene pipes in the house are old and already have fractures and cracks, you might think about having them repaired. What causes a gurgling sound when a bathtub or sink drains? If we compare these two options, the first one is very clearly the better and more feasible option for you as a seller because, in this case, you would turn the entire problem over to the buyer and walk away. However, in some states, residential property disclosure forms have to be utilized when selling their home. E & L Insurance Services, Inc. All rights reserved. In the US, it has become generally accepted that the failures are most likely due to chemicals in municipal water supplies reacting with polybutylene - and this is one of the primary reasons why homeowners won a largeclass-action lawsuit against Shell Oil (who manufactured and marketed the polybutylene resin). Facts vs. Fiction 7. They can handle most of the diligence themselves and are the only decision-maker involved on their side of the deal. Sec 5.008 (c) A seller or seller's agent shall have no duty . They intend to sell the house right away after repairs are made. In reality, getting polybutylene pipes replaced does not cost more than, for example, recarpeting your home would cost you. If you are purchasing a home, you likely have some homeowner insurance covering the houses cost of damages. Builders responded by updatingPB piping systems in 1983. It will not definitely fail. They should specify what materials will be used, hourly rates, and estimated time to do the work. What are the pipes sticking out near my water valves? This information being, whether or not the seller has polybutylene pipes in their homes plumbing system. The seller may not want to take the home off the market to have the work done, which includes ripping out a lot of drywall, and there are a lot of properties with this kind of problem. In prior litigation, the industry behind polybutylene plumbing systems claimed failures were not due to the polybutylene tubing itself, but instead due to installation issues and inappropriate pipe connectors. 16822 SE 92nd Danna Avenue, The Villages, FL 32162, www.thevillagesbestinspector.com Comments or questions tomcgarryandmadsen@mac.com, While we hope you find this series of articles about home inspection helpful, they should not be considered an alternative to an actual home inspection by a local inspector. Pests. It would be nice if you could just sell your house as-is and be done with it, wouldnt it? Asking if the seller plans to replace the current piping with copper or; Asking for a reduction in price that will cover a copper piping replacement once the home is purchased or: Looking at a home copper or up to code piping already in place. Some residential insurance policies won't cover damage from poly-pipe failures. Even home inspectors cant tell you how far along the damage has progressed. Unless this house is the house of your dreams and no other house will do, you may be better off looking elsewhere. The seller's disclosure statement matters to potential buyers, so you should be honest about lead, pests, repairs, and more. This caused the pipes to deteriorate and become brittle on the inside. Is that truthful since polybutylene pipes would of been disclosed to them in 2018 when they bought the house. Buying a home in North/Central Florida? We've requested they replace the pipes, give us a credit for the replacement, or bring the offer price down to cover it. We offer no interest for 12 months if paid in full. And if you're not home when a pipe bursts (and it will), this can result in thousands of dollars in water and structural damages. I don't know how anyone can buy a house unaware of PB piping. Once the pipe is old enough to have one or two hairline cracks, the cracks will keep increasing until it has many cracks, eventually becoming too fragile to hold its structure and breaks. Or perhaps your polybutylene plumbing sprung a leak, and you are trying to decide if you should repair or replace it? Simply use the form on HouseCashin.com to request a no-obligation cash offer on your property. Since every individuals situation is unique, a qualified professional should be consulted before making financial decisions. The tubing is typically 1/2" to 1" in diameter and is flexible. In new construction, it was replaced by copper or more dependable forms of plastic pipe, such as CPVC and PEX. Facts vs. Fiction 8. Which water pipes are an insurance problem and possibly uninsurable? You just have to know who your prospective buyers are, where to find them, and what other factors of such a deal you should consider. Polybutylene pipe is a gray plastic tubing that was commonly used as a water-supply plumbing pipe between 1978 and 1995, at which time it was discontinued due to reports of pipes rupturing. Even though polybutylene pipes are safe for drinking water, they will fail over time. No, it is no longer produced. By the 1990s, however, problems had begun to surface. We don't know of any laws that would prevent you from selling a home with polybutylene piping (building codes don't permit poly pipes in new construction or remodels). Just my opinion. In all but three states (Alaska, California and South Dakota), sellers aren't required to disclose deaths from natural causes. https://www.polybutylene.com/realtor.html. Is a hot water faucet handle required to be on the left? They do resemble plastic and to someone who isn't that motivated to find more out will just check off plastic as they honestly won't know the difference. What is a "combination waste and vent" in a plumbing system? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybutylene. As mentioned above, the main problem with polybutylene pipes is that they are too fragile in the long run and become very weak from the inside and subsequently crack. . Once your pipes have been identified as being made of polybutylene, you can begin to replace all the pipes with good ones. Either copper pipe or PEX tubing are suitable repipe materials, but we find the vast majority of our customers replace their poly pipes with PEX tubing. In short -it didn't work. They were often sold under the brand name Quest, and can be referred to with a variety of terms; including PB, PB-1, poly-pipes, or poly-b pipe. Since our founding in 1991, we've been completing residential and multi-family building repipes to the highest standard. Can you connect CPVC pipe directly to a gas water heater? We are not affiliated with, and do not receive any compensation from, any of the companies or products mentioned in this blog. Consumer protection laws are getting stricter across the US. You should discuss with them the different kinds of pipes available and the cost of each. Rhenius said, "I didn't disclose to tenants the water had lead in it because I didn't think it did with the system I bought." The house was sold in August for $477,500, according to . Our passion for perfection continues to serve our customers year after year. If all the plumbing drains have water in them and you can still smell sewer gas, what's causing the problem? Would we have a case since they lied on the disclosure? Historically, there has been quite a lot of litigation around polybutylene plumbing. But read the fine print: If a buyer asks, this same statute requires the seller to disclose any death on the property more than 3 years old. Fill out our Request a Cash Offer form to get a few offers from competing real estate investors working in your area and vetted by our reputation standards. Anyone who buys a home with Polybutylene or Kitek or such is simple unhinged or has an unhinged . The seller: Nearly every U.S. state has laws requiring sellers to advise buyers of certain defects in the property, typically by filling out a standard disclosure form before the sale is completed. Whether it's snakes, mice, or bats, in most . . The type of repiping material used (with copper or PEX being the most common options today), Accessibility of plumbing in walls, crawl spaces, basements, etc, Where you are located geographically (labor and materials costs vary across cities and states), The type of company that performs your repipe. Heres links to a collection of our other blog posts about PLUMBING PIPES: How can I protect my pipes to keep them from bursting during a hard winter freeze in North Florida? 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